I did wonder if there were calipers with more clearance, mine do taper off towards the edge quite alot though! All the other calipers i have are just the same really, i know some people grind bits off the calipers, but i would really like to avoid that for obvious reasons! Its really hard to know what to fit when this is the first time i have done this!
The Disc Brake conversion thread
- Thread starter Paul Oliver
- Start date
Here's a picture of the inside of the alloy wheels I am fitting to the Van. They are 15x7" and it can be seen how much more clearance is available. The stepped section is located under the spokes rather than to the centre of the rim, as is the case with your standard steel wheels.
I suppose another way around it if you wanted to stay with steel wheels would be to go to 16" with 60 or 50 profile tyres.
With any wheel choice be careful of the offset. You will need zero or negative offset, ie the rim is central to the mounting face or positioned to the right in the picture below.
My alloys are +15mm offset. Zero would have been better on the rear as the Navara Diff is a touch wider than the standard Commer unit. I tried some positive offset wheels for size and they fouled on the top upright badly.
Getting jealous as you might be getting ahead of me. Better pull my finger out and get on with it.
Cheers Stephen
I suppose another way around it if you wanted to stay with steel wheels would be to go to 16" with 60 or 50 profile tyres.
With any wheel choice be careful of the offset. You will need zero or negative offset, ie the rim is central to the mounting face or positioned to the right in the picture below.
My alloys are +15mm offset. Zero would have been better on the rear as the Navara Diff is a touch wider than the standard Commer unit. I tried some positive offset wheels for size and they fouled on the top upright badly.
Getting jealous as you might be getting ahead of me. Better pull my finger out and get on with it.
Cheers Stephen
Just caught up on this thread, really exciting alternative to the Humber Hawk/Snipe option as consumables will be more readily available.
I think the offset might be wrong but Jensen Interceptor 'GKN' alloys (eg. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jensen-Interceptor-Alloy-Wheels-Tyres-x-4-205-70VR15-/230628030522?pt=UK_CarParts_Acc_Wheels_tyres_Trims_Car_Rims_ET&hash=item35b280783a) I think have the same PCD as the Commer but might be an interesting alternative to P6 rostyles or SD1 wheels
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
I think the offset might be wrong but Jensen Interceptor 'GKN' alloys (eg. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jensen-Interceptor-Alloy-Wheels-Tyres-x-4-205-70VR15-/230628030522?pt=UK_CarParts_Acc_Wheels_tyres_Trims_Car_Rims_ET&hash=item35b280783a) I think have the same PCD as the Commer but might be an interesting alternative to P6 rostyles or SD1 wheels
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
Stephen, i see what you are getting at, and i have my eyes on some rover wheels as per the link above, although i am not entirely convinced i like them that much (well actually i love them but i think they would look awful on the commer). I was aware of the offsets, i should get away with the wheels i have currently with spacers, i hear weller can produce custom steel wheels, so i may very well give them a buzz when the time comes!
Paul it would seem you are correct about the jenson having the same pcd (according to google), so thats another option to look into later!
I visited a few places today, unfortunately the local rally place was too busy for me but im popping over tomorrow. After much conversation, and seeking the safest route, it would seem i need to make a hub centric spacer for the rotor (as the holes in the rotor are larger than the studs+ this will help keep everything centralised nicely), and have a small bit lathed off the curved section at the base of the hub where it meets the flange for the spacer to fit snugly (i hope i am wording this correctly). Once this is done, i will then need to make my caliper bracket. I then need longer studs, and may need a little more than a 20mm spacer to fit the full size disc (i figured that seeing as im pushing it out this far, i may as well stick with the 305mm!).
Once i visit the rally place, i will get my final designs made and get cracking on. People are predicting i will be spending £200 minimum per side... i intend to prove them wrong somehow! I have a metal lathe, so maybe i can make the spacers myself, certainly worth a shot!
Spacer wise, can anybody see any reason why i cant use aluminium? It would seem all commercially available ones are alu so i see now reason personally for me to worry?
Paul it would seem you are correct about the jenson having the same pcd (according to google), so thats another option to look into later!
I visited a few places today, unfortunately the local rally place was too busy for me but im popping over tomorrow. After much conversation, and seeking the safest route, it would seem i need to make a hub centric spacer for the rotor (as the holes in the rotor are larger than the studs+ this will help keep everything centralised nicely), and have a small bit lathed off the curved section at the base of the hub where it meets the flange for the spacer to fit snugly (i hope i am wording this correctly). Once this is done, i will then need to make my caliper bracket. I then need longer studs, and may need a little more than a 20mm spacer to fit the full size disc (i figured that seeing as im pushing it out this far, i may as well stick with the 305mm!).
Once i visit the rally place, i will get my final designs made and get cracking on. People are predicting i will be spending £200 minimum per side... i intend to prove them wrong somehow! I have a metal lathe, so maybe i can make the spacers myself, certainly worth a shot!
Spacer wise, can anybody see any reason why i cant use aluminium? It would seem all commercially available ones are alu so i see now reason personally for me to worry?
Aluminium is fine, just use a good grade and not the purer softer alloys.
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
Could Sherpa / LDV Pilot hub & caliper setup fit the Commer ? I believe they have the same PCD (again not sure about the offset).
If by chance they do, the big question is whether their discs and pads are readily available or are we back with Humber Hawk/Snipe supply issues ?
The Austin FX4 Taxi might also have the same PCD, again not sure about the offset - & surely there's still good availability on these ?
Found this related post on Retrorides
http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=68601
(v nice to see 'Sunny Citrus' again
)
Plus PCD calculators ;
http://www.mwsint.com/TechCalcStuds.asp
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
If by chance they do, the big question is whether their discs and pads are readily available or are we back with Humber Hawk/Snipe supply issues ?
The Austin FX4 Taxi might also have the same PCD, again not sure about the offset - & surely there's still good availability on these ?
Found this related post on Retrorides
http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=68601
(v nice to see 'Sunny Citrus' again
)Plus PCD calculators ;
http://www.mwsint.com/TechCalcStuds.asp
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
I've looked on the EBC website and they do have details for some possible disc (rotor) options ;
Jensen Interceptor
Type = Vented
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 272mm
Height = 52mm
New thickness = 23
Min thickness = 21
Price = POA
Rover vans (LDV) Sherpa (81-89)
Rover vans (LDV) Pilot (93-06)
Type = Solid
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 276mm
Height = 53mm
New thickness = 14
Min thickness = 13
Price = £71
Rover vans (LDV) Sherpa V8 (83-89)
Type = Vented
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 275mm
Height = 63mm
New thickness = 24
Min thickness = 23
Price = £199 [:0]
Comparing these on the same site with the Jeep Cherokee (93-99), all are slightly smaller and I'm wondering whether these options (from any supplier) are worth considering either for discs or provide any clues regarding caliper sizing, if you haven't already ruled them out ?
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
) options ;Jensen Interceptor
Type = Vented
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 272mm
Height = 52mm
New thickness = 23
Min thickness = 21
Price = POA
Rover vans (LDV) Sherpa (81-89)
Rover vans (LDV) Pilot (93-06)
Type = Solid
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 276mm
Height = 53mm
New thickness = 14
Min thickness = 13
Price = £71
Rover vans (LDV) Sherpa V8 (83-89)
Type = Vented
Bolt holes = 5
Diameter = 275mm
Height = 63mm
New thickness = 24
Min thickness = 23
Price = £199 [:0]
Comparing these on the same site with the Jeep Cherokee (93-99), all are slightly smaller and I'm wondering whether these options (from any supplier) are worth considering either for discs or provide any clues regarding caliper sizing, if you haven't already ruled them out ?
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
I would go with Rover SD1 discs and calipers.
They are the correct PCD and are designed to fit under 14" wheels.
Rimmer Bros supply everything, availability is good and they are cheap.
They have 4 pot calipers at £50 each, discs are £15 a pop.
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009014
Vented ones as fitted to the Vitesse are more expensive but don't fade as much, because they don't heat up as much. Vitesse wheels were 15 inch so these *might* not fit under 14s but I think the Police spec cars used them so they probably do.
A complete kit is available too:
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009016
(First post by the way. Thought I'd make it a helpful one. Hello!)
They are the correct PCD and are designed to fit under 14" wheels.
Rimmer Bros supply everything, availability is good and they are cheap.
They have 4 pot calipers at £50 each, discs are £15 a pop.
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009014
Vented ones as fitted to the Vitesse are more expensive but don't fade as much, because they don't heat up as much. Vitesse wheels were 15 inch so these *might* not fit under 14s but I think the Police spec cars used them so they probably do.
A complete kit is available too:
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009016
(First post by the way. Thought I'd make it a helpful one. Hello!)
Welcome to the world of Commers !
Thanks for the info re. the SD1 brakes - you might want to know that some Commers are running on original 15" steels as standard, which IIRC was an option at the time.
I'm thinking for our intended setup with a Holbay 1725, which should put out double the standard Commer 1725, that standard discs might be sufficient. The only reason to move away from drums with an added servo is their fade potential. Personally, I wouldn't want to drive a Commer in such a spirited fashion that vented discs are then worth the extra outlay [:0]
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
Thanks for the info re. the SD1 brakes - you might want to know that some Commers are running on original 15" steels as standard, which IIRC was an option at the time.
I'm thinking for our intended setup with a Holbay 1725, which should put out double the standard Commer 1725, that standard discs might be sufficient. The only reason to move away from drums with an added servo is their fade potential. Personally, I wouldn't want to drive a Commer in such a spirited fashion that vented discs are then worth the extra outlay [:0]
'Hunny' our Commer Hi-Tor by TorCars
Hi all,
Although things have been quiet here, I've been plodding away trying to resolve the hubs issue that seems to be holding me back. As you would be aware, I have chosen to go to 6 stud on the rear of my van and so far all the 6 stud front hubs that I have checked have proven dead ends. The major problem being that they are all Japanese based and the bearings are all metric. I had been thinking of getting some hubs machined up from blanks, but fortunately stumbled on another option in the process, trailer hubs!
With a little bit of searching on our local ebay, I have discovered that trailer hubs with 6 stud flanges are available with the LM11949 & LM67048 bearings to suit our Holden stub axles, which just happen to be the same as used on the Commer. I have now bought a set for AU$70 delivered and will check out how they fit and my options re fitting the discs to them. The picture shows the hubs, which come complete with bearings etc and seems a good price considering AU$20 is delivery charges.
I know the majority will want to stay with their std 5 stud set up, but this could be an option that you could look at locally in the UK. I would think that replacement trailer hubs would be available over there with the Commer/Rover etc stud pattern, some already including discs as used on caravans and car trailers.
I won't be receiving my hubs until the middle of next week, so you will have to be patient for an answer on if its going to work. If all else fails, I'll have a set of 6 stud hubs to convert my box trailer further down the track.
Cheers Stephen
Although things have been quiet here, I've been plodding away trying to resolve the hubs issue that seems to be holding me back. As you would be aware, I have chosen to go to 6 stud on the rear of my van and so far all the 6 stud front hubs that I have checked have proven dead ends. The major problem being that they are all Japanese based and the bearings are all metric. I had been thinking of getting some hubs machined up from blanks, but fortunately stumbled on another option in the process, trailer hubs!
With a little bit of searching on our local ebay, I have discovered that trailer hubs with 6 stud flanges are available with the LM11949 & LM67048 bearings to suit our Holden stub axles, which just happen to be the same as used on the Commer. I have now bought a set for AU$70 delivered and will check out how they fit and my options re fitting the discs to them. The picture shows the hubs, which come complete with bearings etc and seems a good price considering AU$20 is delivery charges.
I know the majority will want to stay with their std 5 stud set up, but this could be an option that you could look at locally in the UK. I would think that replacement trailer hubs would be available over there with the Commer/Rover etc stud pattern, some already including discs as used on caravans and car trailers.
I won't be receiving my hubs until the middle of next week, so you will have to be patient for an answer on if its going to work. If all else fails, I'll have a set of 6 stud hubs to convert my box trailer further down the track.
Cheers Stephen
I have a Holbay and servo. I was considering discs but enlarged the fluid capacity and supply lines instead and thats seems to work OK. Drums dont give the precise brake "feel" you get from discs but they work OK. Heavy loaders eg 7.5T trucks and bigger use drums as they stand up to heavy prolonged use without boiling.
Cheers
Jules
RatSport www.ratsport.co.uk
Cheers
Jules
RatSport www.ratsport.co.uk
Hi All
Well the 6 stud trailer hubs arrived the other day, and everything looks very promising. As I suspected the bearings are closer together than in the Commer hubs, but my plan is to have them machined shorter by a friend of mine. The hub seal they came with is wrong, but I have already identified an alternative that should do the job. The hubs are cast iron and very solid rated at 1 ton.
On the strength of this I ordered a pair of Navara D40 front 296mm discs, which arrived today. I was relieved when I opened them and knew immediately that this is going to work and look pretty cool too.
The centre hole of the disc is 68 mm and the outer outside diameter of the inner hub boss is 78mm, so I will get these machined to 75mm so they match up. As can be seen in the picture the wheel studs protude from the rear of the hub flange, so I will get 20mm holes counter bored into the disc mounting face so they can fit together flush. The hub flange is 14mm thick so this will be drilled and tapped so the standard Navara fixing bolts can be used and that should be it.
The discs are quite squat, having a height of only 38mm, fortunately this gives me close to 10mm clearance between the mounting flange on the stub axle to the inside face of the disc. With a caliper mount being 6mm thick, this should leave adaquate clearance as long as I use countersunk fixing bolts.
The only down side is that the Holden Commodore calipers that I was planning to use are a couple of mm too narrow for the 28mm thick discs. I will do some measuring at the local wreckers to check my options, but can always just use the Navara caliper, just need to check on the clearance to the wheel as I have 15" wheels and the Navara has 16" or 17" wheels. Fingers and toes crossed!
Will post an update when I have had the machining done and had a chance to do some work on the caliper mounts.
Cheer Stephen
Well the 6 stud trailer hubs arrived the other day, and everything looks very promising. As I suspected the bearings are closer together than in the Commer hubs, but my plan is to have them machined shorter by a friend of mine. The hub seal they came with is wrong, but I have already identified an alternative that should do the job. The hubs are cast iron and very solid rated at 1 ton.
On the strength of this I ordered a pair of Navara D40 front 296mm discs, which arrived today. I was relieved when I opened them and knew immediately that this is going to work and look pretty cool too.
The centre hole of the disc is 68 mm and the outer outside diameter of the inner hub boss is 78mm, so I will get these machined to 75mm so they match up. As can be seen in the picture the wheel studs protude from the rear of the hub flange, so I will get 20mm holes counter bored into the disc mounting face so they can fit together flush. The hub flange is 14mm thick so this will be drilled and tapped so the standard Navara fixing bolts can be used and that should be it.
The discs are quite squat, having a height of only 38mm, fortunately this gives me close to 10mm clearance between the mounting flange on the stub axle to the inside face of the disc. With a caliper mount being 6mm thick, this should leave adaquate clearance as long as I use countersunk fixing bolts.
The only down side is that the Holden Commodore calipers that I was planning to use are a couple of mm too narrow for the 28mm thick discs. I will do some measuring at the local wreckers to check my options, but can always just use the Navara caliper, just need to check on the clearance to the wheel as I have 15" wheels and the Navara has 16" or 17" wheels. Fingers and toes crossed!
Will post an update when I have had the machining done and had a chance to do some work on the caliper mounts.
Cheer Stephen
Good work, keep at it [8D]
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
Hi all,
Back again, after a very productive day in the shed. This morning I headed off to the wreckers to get a calliper that would fit the 28mm thick discs, and headed straight to the Holden Commodores as the later VT, VX, VY & VZ models have discs the same thickness. There's no shortage of Commodores at the wreckers and quickly found what I was looking for, costing only $35ea, and headed back to my shed. The calliper is not small, and has twin pistons in an alloy body which floats in a steel mounting bracket.
After some general looking and measuring I reckoned that this is going to be close. At this stage I hadn't managed to get the discs and hubs machined, so rather than wait I headed of to where I work as we have a lathe there and decided to do it myself. Now with the centre hole of the disc opened up to 75mm and the hub machined to suit it was back to the shed again to check out the results. Roughly assembling them I quickly discovered that the flange of the hub was too big and prevented the callipers from sitting down far enough, so it was back to work and machining the flange down. Fortunately I live only 3km from work, so all this didn't take too long.
Once back again I drilled a pair of temporary mounting holes in the disc and bolted them up and this time the calliper cleared, just. I grabbed a calliper mount that I had knocked up from some plywood some time back and to my amazement it was perfect, locating the calliper perfectly in line with the disc and giving a couple of mm clearance on the hub flange. With a few spare nuts & bolts I put it together, as can be seen in the pictures below.
The next test was to see if they would actually fit inside the wheels, which they did with good clearance as can be seen in the pictures below. Somewhat relieved I now wondered if the 330mm Navara discs would have fitted, but was feeling gratefully for the result that had.
On a high I took the assembly out to the Van to see if the calliper would clear the suspension etc. After initially fitting them up the original way with the calliper to the rear I quickly discovered a major problem with the steering arm fouling badly and no way was it going to fit. So I quickly removed them and rotated them 180 degrees so the calliper is at the front.
This isn't a problem for these callipers as this is the way we used to locate them on our Datsun 1600 rally cars years ago. They were the smaller single piston version, but they too fouled the steering arms so we used to swap the struts around left to right & right to left so the callipers were at the front. The added benefit was that located in front they cooled better, a definite bonus in competition. So once spun around things were looking much better, the only problem being on full lock the alloy part of the calliper was just hitting the metal base plate of suspension bump rubber. Looking at it I reckon I can grind it back to give me just enough clearance. The pictures below show the setup on full left & right lock and a trained eye can just see where the calliper hits the bump rubber.
Very happy with the result and relieved that it's worked out. Next weekends job will be to make up a pair of real calliper mounts, which will be from 10mm steel plate to make sure there's no flexing. The Mount isn't very complicated as you can see in a picture above, it's just going to be an exercise in very accurate measurement and drilling. The advantage is that they are identical and I'll just tack weld them together back to back so I only have to drill all the holes once. I have discovered during this exercise that using the bigger size discs give you much better clearance with the inner diameter of the disc, so the fixing bolts to the stub axle and calliper don't create any problems.
That's it for now, I'll leave you with on last picture of the setup.
Yes I know the wheel studs need to be fitted and the disc bolted properly to the hub, but I'll get around that during the week hopefully. Plus I still need to get the stub axles shortened, which explains the strange bearing and nut arrangement holding the hub on, but today’s priority was to see if this was all going to work, which it has.
Cheers Stephen
Back again, after a very productive day in the shed. This morning I headed off to the wreckers to get a calliper that would fit the 28mm thick discs, and headed straight to the Holden Commodores as the later VT, VX, VY & VZ models have discs the same thickness. There's no shortage of Commodores at the wreckers and quickly found what I was looking for, costing only $35ea, and headed back to my shed. The calliper is not small, and has twin pistons in an alloy body which floats in a steel mounting bracket.
After some general looking and measuring I reckoned that this is going to be close. At this stage I hadn't managed to get the discs and hubs machined, so rather than wait I headed of to where I work as we have a lathe there and decided to do it myself. Now with the centre hole of the disc opened up to 75mm and the hub machined to suit it was back to the shed again to check out the results. Roughly assembling them I quickly discovered that the flange of the hub was too big and prevented the callipers from sitting down far enough, so it was back to work and machining the flange down. Fortunately I live only 3km from work, so all this didn't take too long.
Once back again I drilled a pair of temporary mounting holes in the disc and bolted them up and this time the calliper cleared, just. I grabbed a calliper mount that I had knocked up from some plywood some time back and to my amazement it was perfect, locating the calliper perfectly in line with the disc and giving a couple of mm clearance on the hub flange. With a few spare nuts & bolts I put it together, as can be seen in the pictures below.
The next test was to see if they would actually fit inside the wheels, which they did with good clearance as can be seen in the pictures below. Somewhat relieved I now wondered if the 330mm Navara discs would have fitted, but was feeling gratefully for the result that had.
On a high I took the assembly out to the Van to see if the calliper would clear the suspension etc. After initially fitting them up the original way with the calliper to the rear I quickly discovered a major problem with the steering arm fouling badly and no way was it going to fit. So I quickly removed them and rotated them 180 degrees so the calliper is at the front.
This isn't a problem for these callipers as this is the way we used to locate them on our Datsun 1600 rally cars years ago. They were the smaller single piston version, but they too fouled the steering arms so we used to swap the struts around left to right & right to left so the callipers were at the front. The added benefit was that located in front they cooled better, a definite bonus in competition. So once spun around things were looking much better, the only problem being on full lock the alloy part of the calliper was just hitting the metal base plate of suspension bump rubber. Looking at it I reckon I can grind it back to give me just enough clearance. The pictures below show the setup on full left & right lock and a trained eye can just see where the calliper hits the bump rubber.
Very happy with the result and relieved that it's worked out. Next weekends job will be to make up a pair of real calliper mounts, which will be from 10mm steel plate to make sure there's no flexing. The Mount isn't very complicated as you can see in a picture above, it's just going to be an exercise in very accurate measurement and drilling. The advantage is that they are identical and I'll just tack weld them together back to back so I only have to drill all the holes once. I have discovered during this exercise that using the bigger size discs give you much better clearance with the inner diameter of the disc, so the fixing bolts to the stub axle and calliper don't create any problems.
That's it for now, I'll leave you with on last picture of the setup.
Yes I know the wheel studs need to be fitted and the disc bolted properly to the hub, but I'll get around that during the week hopefully. Plus I still need to get the stub axles shortened, which explains the strange bearing and nut arrangement holding the hub on, but today’s priority was to see if this was all going to work, which it has.
Cheers Stephen
Wow this is a fantastic thread! Being in NZ this is of great interest to me. Holden parts no issue!!
Keep up the excellent work and i may well plagerise this for the Iceman if i am not happy with the servo assisted drums on there at the moment. Thanks.
The ICEMAN is NOT on Botox!!!
Keep up the excellent work and i may well plagerise this for the Iceman if i am not happy with the servo assisted drums on there at the moment. Thanks.
The ICEMAN is NOT on Botox!!!
Looking good [8D]
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
