Overdrive gearbox for Pootle?

[Pootle's Owner]

So here we have the engine just awaiting a few new final stainless bolts....
Because rebuilding motorbike engines is more my background and putting this into Pootle is going to be the real challenge, I would like to 'prove' it as far as possible before fitting.
I can check the compression, timing/distributor etc happily but I would like to confirm oil pump/flow/pressure by fitting a starter and turning it on that (full of oil!) to check all is OK before fitting.
Am I right in thinking that originally Pootle would have had a starter with a bendix drive?
Back when I left Uni in 1979 my first car was a Hillman Avenger and that had a pre-engaged starter and I assume I could fit one to this engine?
Any other things I should check before struggling to get the engines swapped?
Cheers
Tony

 

[Panky]

Looking good
Yep just a normal bendix starter, Lucas M35G but can't remember how many teeth

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Hello again
Well after due consideration I have fitted a new pre-engage starter from Wosp which is a bit pricey but is a nice bit of kit and spins the engine over well. Oil pressure on starter is 30psi and all cylinders give 12Bar compression so all looking good. New crankshaft pulley fitted and extra timing marks stamped on for timing setting. All setup with new points at the moment but will fit a hall-sensor to distributor in due course... Hope to look at swapping engine this week but we shall see....
Current worries apart from hoisting engines in/out.....
Engine is an Alpine so has twin Strombergs and exhaust manifold for double pipe Alpine exhaust.
What exhausts are around that might be useful?
- original on Pootle is a very small affair that needs replacing really and I can bodge an adapter for testing the engine but probably need something better for use in-anger....

Initial plan is to fit new engine with original box and I have a new clutch to fit but, if that all works out I want to replace the gearbox next.
I have an Alpine one with an overdrive and original plan was to rebuild and fit that but a friend suggested perhaps a better alternative would be to fit an automatic box to make the bus a bit less of a handful to drive? Has anyone done this and are there suitable Rootes auto boxes around I might consider? Again one with an overdrive would probably make sense if available...
Cheers
Tony

 

[Panky]

The twin Rapier style down pipe is at the wrong angle to fit down the side in the Commer engine bay, I had to modify it quite a bit to make it fit

I originally went to an exhaust warehouse and rummaged around to find suitable silencers and made a system up

That was over ten years ago and I recently replaced the silencers with universal Jetex ones, I used two to make them as quiet as possible as they are straight through to aid performance.

Martin Maltas does standard systems up to (I think ) 1 5/8" diameter but I don't think he does one for the twin down pipe system. He does however do a tubular manifold that fits to his system, I'm sure he can make it to suit the twin Strombies manifold. Even better why not go for his combined inlet/outlet tubular manifold, That way you can fit a single HIF44 SU which will out perform the twins in power. economy and simplicity.

There was only one type of auto box fitted to the Rootes engines and that was a three speed jobby, no overdrive fitted unfortunately. Manual with overdrive all the way unless you want to go six speed Lexus with one of commeracers conversions. All these choices are very dangerous financially

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Hello all
OK so after a bit of engine hokey-kokey because the sump on the Alpine engine won’t fit over the steering linkage (“you put your engine in, you pull your engine out, in, out, swap the sumps about…)…

Pootle now has a new engine in place



As is often the case with big-jobs, putting engine through the passenger door wasn’t as bad as I’d feared.

I had intended to initially fit the old inlet and exhaust manifolds and carb to the new engine to get it going but clearly that doesn’t work given different ports and camshaft;

Alpine


Original



Next decision is to do with carbs and manifolds…
Things may change later but initially I will be using a pair of Strombergs as I have four of them.
I have Alpine inlet and exhaust manifolds and had intended to use those but the inlet manifold tilts up which makes the carbs sit very high (though doable).
I also have another twin carb manifold that is ‘flat’ and marked 71981229

Looks like this and possibly from a Rapier?
Anyone used one of these on a Commer?
It fouls the Alpine exhaust manifold a little but a bit of filing would allow it to be fitted if I ignore the water cooling inlet pipes….

Also saw this is local so may go to look/measure to see if it’s adaptable…
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hillman-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
- Anyone recognize this as a possible?

Cheers
Tony

 

[Panky]

Looking very nice
That ebay one is for the Holbay engine so the ports are different again so no good I'm afraid.
The tilted manifold will be from an earlier car with an upright engine, the flat one will be from an Arrows series car which has the engine tilted over. To get the carbs at the right angle you should really use the angled manifold, and it might give a bit more room for filters, but the other will work, maybe you will need to alter the float height slightly. You won't run into any problems not plumbing the manifold into the cooling system so chop and file away.

 

[admin]

pre forum I won a rootes engine rstored for an article in Practical Classics - was gutted when we tried to fit it about the same tilt issue; feel like the knowledge here would have saved me selling it on but c'est le vie

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Well it's getting scarily close to trying to fire the beast up..... Whilst considering and searching for exhaust ideas I found that there is a Sunbeam Alpine supplier in Shepperton which is about 5 miles from me so I went over there this afternoon and bought An alpine downpipe and Y joiner to bring the exhaust to a single 1 3/4" pipe so I can easily bodge that into existing exhaust for initial testing... Interestingly they had been to see the Commer camper that featured in the Alan Bennet story about the woman who camped on his driveway - it is for sale on ebay in Croydon but they reckoned it was not suitable for their requirements. Next question for you gurus is about a small radiator fitted right behind the grill on Pootle;

I haven't really investigated this yet but a mate who was helping me earlier in the week looked at the pipework and said that this little radiator is connected in series with the heater fitted under the dash! Is this normal or someones addition? I don't really understand the logic of it if it is like that. Is it just 'any more cooling' is generally a good idea? The other oddity is the 'dead-end' pipe sticking up in front of the radiator;


Anyone have any ideas on this cooling arrangement?
I think that generally Commers are a bit lacking on cooling and the Alpine engine will need as much cooling as I can get?
What options are available or suggested?
Cheers
Tony

 

[jimberlake]

Lovely engine...I’ve the same engine in mine but from a Hunter and have no cooling issues in traffic or at 70 as long as the blocks clean inside, the rad and water pump’s all good it’ll cool fine. I thought I had issues once and fitted an extra rad but ended up being some other problem

 

[Panky]

Result with the exhaust
I fitted an extra little rad in the heater return but I've ditched the mechanical fan and fitted temperature controlled electric and it works well. The position of yours is probably defeating the object a little as it's restricting the air flow to the main rad. It maybe that the old engine was silted up and getting a bit hot, it's probably only in stream with the heater on so try it with the heater off at first.
The dead end pipe is the infamous Bulbous End, it's the drain from the heater box and should be check occasionally for water/debris. You'll probably find it's full of crap hence one of the forum manta's 'don't forget to squeeze you bulbous end'

 

[commeracer]

An inline rad in the heater return is a good idea, most of ours have one. But as Panky says, it's a bad idea to put it there blocking airflow to the main rad.

 

[Pootle's Owner]

An inline rad in the heater return is a good idea, most of ours have one. But as Panky says, it's a bad idea to put it there blocking airflow to the main rad.

Thanks for input as always guys. I can sort out rads and cooling later and will fit a decent electric fan once it's running. At the moment I fear I'm procrastinating and focussing on bits of nothing rather than connecting the engine up and giving it a try.... What do I do if it doesn't work?????

 

[Panky]

Fix it

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Fix it

Well the great moment arrived and after a bit of delay getting petrol through to twin Strombergs the new motor sprang to life perfectly and was idling nicely after a couple of minutes. Oil pressure around 30psi on fast idle and no water or oil leaks to be seen. All a pleasant surprise really... Of course when we came to restart it later in the afternoon it wouldn't run at all which seemed bizarre. I thought it was a fuel problem again but quickly found erratic sparks. In the end the problem was traced to the new capacitor fitted with new distributer cap and points. Fitted capacitor from old engine and engine running as nice as you like - Accuspark bits for distributor in the post! Next job is to make a proper fixing for throttle cable at the carbs and sort the mounting of the clutch actuator as I stupidly fitted it to front face of bellhousing rather than the rear so it doesn't reach to depress the clutch...

 

[Panky]

Excellent, well done that man

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Hello all. So the Alpine engine is now running well and I'm sorting out fairly minor stuff before I refit the seats and start some local runs to bed the engine in. I made up a very 'steam punk' gantry for the throttle cable to the Strombergs (silver soldered brass and stainless-steel jobbie) which works well and I have now dismantled the accelerator peddle and pushrods to sort the worn bearings and fix the crazy geometry of the peddle so that there is some 'feel' and controllability of the throttle at low speed. The next challenge is to clear the garage of some of the amassed clutter and we really have no space or use for Pootle's original engine.... Anyone fancy taking away a tired but running 1725 engine? It may be a classic but I really need to get rid of it now.... Free to a good home (or a bad one for that matter,,,)... [email protected] Located near Leatherhead in Surrey

 

[Panky]

That's great news, looking forward to meeting up at some time

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Yep, hopefully once things calm down again perhaps Commer-fest might happen and we can make a trip back to the frozen north with Pootle - I grew up near Castleford so know the northern wilds very well!
Cheers
Tony

 

[Pootle's Owner]

Hello again. OK so I've done a few short runs around town to bed the engine in and have spent some time farting around with temperature sensors so I can get an idea if the engine is running too hot. I now have an accurate temp meter checked against an accurate thermocouple so I dare drive it knowing the real situation. At the moment there is no hot water passing through the dash heater and the series connected little heater (airlock I imagine) and the engine does get up near 100C so it does need attention. I will flush everything through and purge the air in the system at the weekend and also order a modern electric fan but have a question about picture below - should there be a cover at the bottom of the engine bay so that the air directed from the front air intake goes to the radiator rather than air also just arriving from under the vehicle? If there were no plate fitted I wouldn't think the ducting of air from the inlet grill would have much effect?

Anyone have views on sucking or blowing electric fans and keep/remove propeller from the front of the water pump?
Cheers
Tony

 

[S0updragon]

I will have to double check but I think the plate doesn’t go that far back. I routed the air intake to the front of the radiator and I didn’t remove anything to do that from underneath. I can take pics tomorrow if that’s any help. I think there are holes you need to block up if you remove the fan. I have read threads on that back along. I’m sure someone will give better help on that.