look chris there just christmas ties we all have them and there corny and great fun but wanting to know there history makes you an anorak!!! oh you mean the van oh silly me, and ive just admitted to having bad taste xmas ties i see your cunning plan with panky to weed out the down right strange very clever!!!! hi justin welcome and good luck, tell nothing admit nothing no matter how tight they do the thumb screws[}][}][}][)]