Chloe - I'm back...

2

2002gimp

0
Not really been around for a while, had loads of stuff i needed to get sorted etc.

You may of seen Chloe forsale, but i've decided i'm def gonna keep her, do the few niggling bits and start enjoying her again.

Also, decided my 'no modifications' rule is out the window. Dont worry though, i'm not on about chopping the body around or owt.

I've already fitted some low profile 195/45 tyres, mainly so she would fit in the garage. After seeing how this has improved her looks, i've decided to hit her with the stick. I'll soon be cutting the front springs down a few coils and have already ordered some rear lowering blocks and new longer u-bolts.

I was thinking about alloys as well, but tbh, i hate them. So i've decided to keep the steels, but have them banded out a few inches, paint them black and have new chrome caps and trim rings.

After all that will be the engine, whilst its a very good lump in her at the min, its just not usable in modern traffic. Plus, I really want an autobox as the forward control gearchange is about as good as stirring soup. So i'm eyeing up a Vauxhall lump.

Also - this is the last, promise - Has anyone done a front disc brake conversion, i figure i might as well bring her into the 21st century!


Phil
 
A wise decision and a most welcome one, good to see you are still around. The Vauxhall conversion has been discussed loads on here and would seem a good option. One of the vans that have had this conversion sits on a set of Rover P5 Rostyle wheels (bolt pattern is the same)and I must admit they do look the business. You may have come across Dozers contributions with his Ford V6 powered camper, he has still got the original (big) drums up front and they are proving to be up to the job of stopping a PB from the ton [:0] so maybe more effort that its worth to convert to discs.

'Harvey the RV'
 
sounds good to me [^] excellent . i will also be looking into discs, i am sure something can be adapted. failing that then there is the remote servo/larger bore master cylinder options :)

"you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off no.3"
 
Not sure that I approve [V][?]
she seems like too good an original to do that too [xx(]
perhaps you should find a wreck & do that [?]
Failing that go for it just do a good job on her :D[}:)]:D[^];)[8D]:):pDon't forget the pic's :p

"RAN"the van & N0.1
 
I disagree Chris, I think as long as she remains on the road and, more importantly, used regulally, why not [?] I like to think she would remain looking the same, but if she has more modern mechanics, she will get used more and be seen by more people :)
 
By the sound of it Chloe isn't going to undergo any non-reversible changes so any lucky future owner can revert back to original if they want, just don't throw the old bits away [:0]

'Harvey the RV'
 
All the changes will be reversable, dont worry!

She wont really look much different, just be sitting closer to the floor and moving faster!

Thinking about the front brakes, there's a lot of 5x5inch pcd things out there, so they should be adaptable. Turn the front drum down so its more like a hub and just bolt on some SD1 discs or summat, only prob then is making a nice solid caliper mount. Though to be fair, she anchors up well at the min, just not sure how she'd do it from 80ish :D
 
Does the PB share the same front suspension with any of the larger 'rootes' cars?..one that was fitted with discs perhaps instead of drums.That would mean just a swap in theory.

My ride?...1973 Bedford TK Coachbuilt(restoration in progress weather permitting) :)
 
Right, have been looking at ways of lowering the van and since there leaf over axle, lowering blocks wont work up the back.

Does anyone know how this stance was achieved, any help is greatly appreciated

IMG_4727.JPG
 
**Edit** (oh, why cant i edit my posts???)

Just found out its Daves van, i'm happy with cutting the coils ont he front and have no problem with doing so, its just the rear i'm looking into now. I've read in a previous post that you just remove a few leaves. The prob is, which ones, again, any help...

I only want a 2-3inch drop...
 
I'm surprised that you guys don't know most of the interchanges or overlap between the Commer van underpinnings and some of the Rootes cars.

I can't give all the details without spending a long time cross referencing via the various parts lists but at the front end the Commer van is in the same family as the Sunbeam Talbot 90 (that's where much of the suspension/steering design originated) and also all the 'Series' (i.e. Big but without a chassis) Humbers, from 1957 to 1967. From about 1959 all those Humbers were fitted with discs on the front and I would be surprised if that whole system could not be grafted fairly easily onto the van stub axles. The main areas to watch out for would be the standard van wheels clearing the calipers. This would particularly apply to the 14" variety but even 15s might be troublesome as I suspect that they may be more robust than the Humber ones and probably riveted, which might leave less clearance due to the rivet heads protruding on the inside the wheel. There might also be body clearance problems if the Humber hubs with discs give a greater track than the original van hubs.

I shall attempt a quick experiment with a spare 14" wheel on a disc braked Humber over the next few days and also just observe which components on the steering/suspension would appear to be identical or might easily interchange.

Other complications might be obvious, such as disc braked Humbers use Girling so you would have a mixed Girling/Lockheed system, servo assistance would be recommended, plus a larger fluid reservoir (the level goes down as the pads wear). Also, where would the handbrake mechanism go if yours is on the front brakes at the moment?

Hugh
 
And the first update is.......... 14" wheels won't go over the Humber brake calipers in standard form. Spacers or discreet use of a grinder on the caliper casting might just about allow it but neither would be something that I would particularly recommend.

I don't have a Commer 15" wheel to try but I suspect that they would fit quite happily along with various equivalents from Austin, Rover, Vauxhall, Chevrolet, etc., with the appropriate PCD.
 
Hugh,

Thats good to know, cue lots of people modernising there brakes!

I'm still after doing the simple task of lowering her first, so really need to know about the leaf pack up the rear...
 
Hey Hugh

I for one would be fascinated to find out the mix and match aspect of the rootes parts that are interchangable but not at the expense of a great deal of someone's time.

This mainly comes from having tried to wedge at 1725 lump into my 65 PA!
 
What an excellent mod that would be, a real 'period' development of the brakes. You wonder why Commer didn't do it and get one up on the opposition.
I wouldn't worry about mixing manufacturers for the brake parts, I had a few Vauxhall Vivas and it was normal for the front to be Lockheed and the rear to be Girling (or was it the other way round?)

'Harvey the RV'
 
At the risk of getting some of this wrong, I may post what I believe to be true on a gradual basis. The only difficulty I shall now face is that Martin took my only available example of the Commer/Dodge 15/25 cwt today so I shall have nothing with which to double check my theories which will have to remain mostly book based to begin with.

Anything that I'm particularly confident about I may also post on one or other of my permanent web sites.

Another area that I shall start looking into is the small number of cosmetic items that may cross over to much bigger commercial vehicles, particularly such items as late style door handles which are very reminiscent of those on the Dodge 50 and maybe the bigger 100 series trucks as well. Fortunately, I have Dodge 50s already and probably a Commando (early forerunner of the 100) on its way soon so I shall be able to inspect those carefully as I'm not well off for late books and have no microfiche records at all.

However, in summary:

Commer/Dodge 1500/2500/Spacevan will share (some parts for)

Steering/suspension with 'large' cars, particularly 'Series' Humbers. Sunbeam Talbot 90 has a centre swivel arrangement but I don't think many of the relevant parts will interchange with Commers.

(Incidentally, the track rod ends cover a huge range of other vehicles so don't pay over the odds for them)

Rear axle with 'large' cars but van ratios (and therefore cwp) are different

Engine and gearbox with 'light car range' early, Arrow range later, gearbox parts also shared with Humber Hawk. This family of engines also used by Ginetta and there was also a rather obscure marine offering.

Diesel engine options are Perkins 4.99 or 4.108 which can be found elsewhere, particularly Ford Transit, though all examples seem to be getting a bit rare now

Cosmetic items, both in and out, can turn up all over the place, particularly door handles, some lamps, wheel trims (Minx), but also other odds and ends

Rear spring shackles look very like Arrow (Hunter) ones to me but they may be slightly more robust and not interchangeable.

More later, when I am confident of part numbers, dates, etc.

Hugh
 
Excellent stuff Hugh, many thanks. As you may have gathered most of us around here are keen on our vans and enjoy the good banter to be had but are somewhat lacking when it comes to the kind of information you have supplied. Maybe we are to quick to look elsewhere (outside the Rootes Group) for upgrades when all along a natural progression has been available with parts from the same stable, and potentially (almost) bolt on at that [^]. You mentioned rear axles from certain car ranges, would the ratios be to high to be considered for a PB or PA camper even with the light loading normally associated with such a vehicle. I for one will be looking forward to more of your contributions.

'Harvey the RV'
 
I'm too lazy to list out all the available axle ratios just yet but that will be quite simple to do in due course.

However, to atempt to answer Panky's question briefly, it all comes down to the ratio of available power (or perhaps more accurately torque plus rpm achievable for the purists) versus the amount of rolling resistance and drag when under normal use and the rate of accleration or hillclimbing ability required/available. In essence, if you don't uprate the torque characteristics of your engine but change to taller gearing (which can be via lower numerical value axle ratios, overdrive/fifth gear or larger rolling radius driven wheels or a mixture) then your available acceleration/hillclimbing or load carrying ability must surely be reduced from what it was before the changes. In addition, diesel engines have completely different torque/rpm characteristics from petrol engines so they can pull taller gearing at low speeds but 'run out of puff' sooner and the vehicle with such an engine would then probably have a lower top speed than the petrol engine/lower gearing combination.

I would say, at a guess, that a 1725 in good tune or of a higher output might pull the lowest Humber ratio quite happily. This could also be assisted and/or extended with a change of wheel/tyre size, but always depending on what you started with in the first place.

It's not going to be a simple job to experiment with ratios as the axle casings and spring and damper mountings are quite different on a Humber, probably the track as well. Thus, to try out a Humber ratio, the minimum effort required would be a complete diff swap, which is probably not a lot of fun without experience because the half shaft/bearing/oil seal assemblies need special tool arrangements when overhauled (unless you are brutal and just junk the old wheel bearings and start again).

I should be able to establish quite soon whether van shafts will fit a Humber diff and that the diff itself shares a main casting between the two applications. However, if the Humber diff won't go in easily for some reason, then the only option would be to build a bespoke diff unit for the van with a Humber crown wheel and pinion chosen and installed.

The other thing to be aware of is that, regardless of the 'all up' weight of the vehicle, frontal area has a big impact on the overall drag at speed, regardless of the CD that can be achieved for the particular vehicle shape involved. A Commer van may even be a better 'slipper through the air' than a Humber but unfortunately it has to push a larger section of air as well so the net effect may be a worse graph of drag versus speed than for the Humbers, hence the usual installation of lower gearing.

Somebody has probably done all the calculations already and written them down somewhere but, without knowing the CD, frontal area and rolling resistance values, all I could do would be to calculate the theoretical maximum speed in each gear and those speeds might not actually be achievable.

So, no real answers there then, just a lot of waffle!

Hugh
 
Interesting waffle all the same. I plan to fit a Rapier engine complete with O.D. box and keep the original axle so hopefully will improve hill(or at least slope)climbing ability and give more relaxed cruising. To be able to hear myself think at 65 would be most welcome. Interesting example from studiocommer who fitted a makeshift exhaust system to her standard engine and the resulting extra torque available enabled her van to climb hills in top rather than change down. I think a bespoke system with minimal back pressure will be the order of the day.

'Harvey the RV'
 
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