Yes they are pretty good, keep thinking I'm gonna do a forward roll when I forget the servos there
The Blue Toaster
The Blue Toaster
63' Bluebird Highwayman - Matilda
- Thread starter Bayside
- Start date
Intrigued about the Isuzu..that's the one I want to do but will let you guinea pig it first then
Jon did a very good Ford 1.8td with a good thread to it...good engines too, not as good as the one your on about but defo up there.
The Blue Toaster
Jon did a very good Ford 1.8td with a good thread to it...good engines too, not as good as the one your on about but defo up there.
The Blue Toaster
Bayside
0
I've been doing a lot of research on the engines I could have used and discounted many of them due to cost, electronic complexity, size when factoring in manifolds etc and longevity. I also want to run an automatic transmission which caused a whole world issues for many of my initial choices.
I looked at the Peugeot XUD 1.9TD but finding a torque converter that would mate to a rear drive auto and Pug flex plate was harder than I thought. Of course I could have opted for an LDV Pilot manual gearbox as many were powered by the XUD but I decided to keep looking.
I considered an early E36 BMW 318TD engine and gearbox but they can be pricey and are quite wide. They are also electronically complex.
I considered Mercedes C Class diesel - problems are much the same as the BMW
VW engines are good but can be complex and rear drive auto boxes not easy to find.
I looked at later Y20DT and other CDTI Vauxhall engines as fitted to the Vectra but they are run from an ECU and when the pumps fail they cost £500 to repair or replace.
I then looked at the Vauxhall / Isuzu X17DT - 82bhp, 125lb/ft and in an Astra / Corsa 50 - 55mpg all day long. They are known to be massively strong and reliable, can run vegetable oil due to having a Bosch VE mechanical pump and have no brain as such requiring only a couple of wires to get running with no ECU. These engines also share the same bell housing pattern as a Carlton or Omega which opens up the possibility of rear drive. I have also seen a Ford Type 9 and MT75 boxes mated to these but they aren't autos. Something to be aware of when shopping for a Vauxhall 1.7 diesel is that there is a GM unit fitted to later Mk3 Astras that is a low pressure turbo'd unit that is not as good. I went to see an Astra breaker today that had this unit which was a shame.
So Having chosen my diesel unit I needed to justify it further by figuring out my transmission. The X17TD didn't come with an Automatic gearbox attached so no flexplate that can be used. The Omega Automatic from a four cylinder will bolt to the engine but the flex plate cant be used as it has only six crank bolts over the Isuzu units eight. Also the gearbox used on a Carlton / Omega doesn't have a cheap readily available stand alone fully programmable ECU.
I considered the Borg Warner 35 Auto that was fitted to the Commer vans originally but they are surprisingly complex from a mechanical point of view given the links to the carb (of which none on diesel) and other inputs that would be a pain to sort out.
This got me thinking and I remembered my research from when I was putting a Lexus LS400 V8 into a Toyota Hilux using a stand alone ECU. For one reason or another that project never happened but I have the 4.0 V8 sitting on an engine stand at home and next to it the Toyota A340E / A341E electronic automatic gearbox that was attached to it. So a bit of digging around confirmed that the Lexus flex plate has an eight bolt crank pattern which might fit the Isuzu crank (to be confirmed). I can then bolt the torque converter to it and the box. I need to look at the Flex plate as I may need to have the ring gear from the Isuzu grafted to it but until I can get hold of both units and do some careful measuring I wont know how that looks. Clearly I would need a bellhousing to go around this so I see no reason at the moment why the Lexus box cant be mated to the Omega bellhousing using an adapter plate between or welded to it to suit. That just leaves electronic control of the box but I have already found a fully laptop programmable unit for the A340 / A341E that will do the job for little outlay. More on that in the future as its potentially a threat all of its own!
I'm not certain how strong the rear axles are on the Commer so will probably modify an LDV Pilot unit to fit which will have suitable strength and gearing for the diesel whilst retaining the correct width and wheel fitment - again more on that later on.
I've probably bored you to death so far so I'll call it a night at that.
I looked at the Peugeot XUD 1.9TD but finding a torque converter that would mate to a rear drive auto and Pug flex plate was harder than I thought. Of course I could have opted for an LDV Pilot manual gearbox as many were powered by the XUD but I decided to keep looking.
I considered an early E36 BMW 318TD engine and gearbox but they can be pricey and are quite wide. They are also electronically complex.
I considered Mercedes C Class diesel - problems are much the same as the BMW
VW engines are good but can be complex and rear drive auto boxes not easy to find.
I looked at later Y20DT and other CDTI Vauxhall engines as fitted to the Vectra but they are run from an ECU and when the pumps fail they cost £500 to repair or replace.
I then looked at the Vauxhall / Isuzu X17DT - 82bhp, 125lb/ft and in an Astra / Corsa 50 - 55mpg all day long. They are known to be massively strong and reliable, can run vegetable oil due to having a Bosch VE mechanical pump and have no brain as such requiring only a couple of wires to get running with no ECU. These engines also share the same bell housing pattern as a Carlton or Omega which opens up the possibility of rear drive. I have also seen a Ford Type 9 and MT75 boxes mated to these but they aren't autos. Something to be aware of when shopping for a Vauxhall 1.7 diesel is that there is a GM unit fitted to later Mk3 Astras that is a low pressure turbo'd unit that is not as good. I went to see an Astra breaker today that had this unit which was a shame.
So Having chosen my diesel unit I needed to justify it further by figuring out my transmission. The X17TD didn't come with an Automatic gearbox attached so no flexplate that can be used. The Omega Automatic from a four cylinder will bolt to the engine but the flex plate cant be used as it has only six crank bolts over the Isuzu units eight. Also the gearbox used on a Carlton / Omega doesn't have a cheap readily available stand alone fully programmable ECU.
I considered the Borg Warner 35 Auto that was fitted to the Commer vans originally but they are surprisingly complex from a mechanical point of view given the links to the carb (of which none on diesel) and other inputs that would be a pain to sort out.
This got me thinking and I remembered my research from when I was putting a Lexus LS400 V8 into a Toyota Hilux using a stand alone ECU. For one reason or another that project never happened but I have the 4.0 V8 sitting on an engine stand at home and next to it the Toyota A340E / A341E electronic automatic gearbox that was attached to it. So a bit of digging around confirmed that the Lexus flex plate has an eight bolt crank pattern which might fit the Isuzu crank (to be confirmed). I can then bolt the torque converter to it and the box. I need to look at the Flex plate as I may need to have the ring gear from the Isuzu grafted to it but until I can get hold of both units and do some careful measuring I wont know how that looks. Clearly I would need a bellhousing to go around this so I see no reason at the moment why the Lexus box cant be mated to the Omega bellhousing using an adapter plate between or welded to it to suit. That just leaves electronic control of the box but I have already found a fully laptop programmable unit for the A340 / A341E that will do the job for little outlay. More on that in the future as its potentially a threat all of its own!
I'm not certain how strong the rear axles are on the Commer so will probably modify an LDV Pilot unit to fit which will have suitable strength and gearing for the diesel whilst retaining the correct width and wheel fitment - again more on that later on.
I've probably bored you to death so far so I'll call it a night at that.
Bayside
0
quote:
Originally posted by Panky
Sounds like an interesting (and cunning) plan My advise is to try the original drums before you decide to swap them, you'll be surprised how well they pull the van up
I agree - having not tried them I'd be daft not to give them an overhaul and see how they go in the first instance and can save some money which would be better spent elsewhere. I'm yet to take a look at these to check the condition but as she stands nothing is binding or jammed solid so I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Do these have a remote servo as standard somewhere or is that an after market add on? Mine looks like only having an unassisted master cylinder under the floor.
Originally posted by Panky
Sounds like an interesting (and cunning) plan
My advise is to try the original drums before you decide to swap them, you'll be surprised how well they pull the van up
I agree - having not tried them I'd be daft not to give them an overhaul and see how they go in the first instance and can save some money which would be better spent elsewhere. I'm yet to take a look at these to check the condition but as she stands nothing is binding or jammed solid so I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Do these have a remote servo as standard somewhere or is that an after market add on? Mine looks like only having an unassisted master cylinder under the floor.
You'll need to try harder to get us bored Sounds like you've done your homework too.
One of the great things about this forum is that no one criticises anyone else for modding their vans, we just love them all and embrace innovation [^]
No servo fitted as standard, but remote ones are easy enough to fit - never felt the need myself but maybe with an auto box it could be beneficial.
Sounds like you've done your homework too.One of the great things about this forum is that no one criticises anyone else for modding their vans, we just love them all and embrace innovation [^]
No servo fitted as standard, but remote ones are easy enough to fit - never felt the need myself but maybe with an auto box it could be beneficial.
Bayside
0
quote:
Originally posted by Panky
You'll need to try harder to get us bored Sounds like you've done your homework too.
One of the great things about this forum is that no one criticises anyone else for modding their vans, we just love them all and embrace innovation [^]
No servo fitted as standard, but remote ones are easy enough to fit - never felt the need myself but maybe with an auto box it could be beneficial.
From what I had read so far I was sure that would be the case. Its nice to be on a forum that doesn't judge especially when it comes to tinkering with rare old beasties. I've never really been a purist in that respect opting for modern solutions / upgrades to old problems in order to have something I can use. Plus I cant help tinkering in order to have something unique.
I was looking at remote servo's earlier today and they aren't as pricey as I thought they would be - certainly cheaper than the Rover discs and calipers I was looking at on the Rimmer Bros website.
Originally posted by Panky
You'll need to try harder to get us bored
Sounds like you've done your homework too.One of the great things about this forum is that no one criticises anyone else for modding their vans, we just love them all and embrace innovation [^]
No servo fitted as standard, but remote ones are easy enough to fit - never felt the need myself but maybe with an auto box it could be beneficial.
From what I had read so far I was sure that would be the case. Its nice to be on a forum that doesn't judge especially when it comes to tinkering with rare old beasties. I've never really been a purist in that respect opting for modern solutions / upgrades to old problems in order to have something I can use. Plus I cant help tinkering in order to have something unique.
I was looking at remote servo's earlier today and they aren't as pricey as I thought they would be - certainly cheaper than the Rover discs and calipers I was looking at on the Rimmer Bros website.
Yes got my servo from Martin. The Doris drives the van and didn't feel safe having to stamp the pedal, gives alittle more confidence really no more stopping power.
Yes researched the isuzu heavily, and want a manual really so gearboxes aren't a problem, linkage, Jon did a goodun with a cable change mech from an MG that works a treat apparently. The 5 speed Manta is the one as its small but they are steep as everyone wants them for redtop kit car conversions...cartons is the one to use instead but quite a sizeable unit.
Regarding rear ends...rover P5b is one people have used and takes some power. Yes right..the GM engines are shocking apparently whereas the Isuzu unit can be tuned massively free of cost and still be reliable, they also do 300,000 miles easily if looked after..GM ones just go pop
The Blue Toaster
Yes researched the isuzu heavily, and want a manual really so gearboxes aren't a problem, linkage, Jon did a goodun with a cable change mech from an MG that works a treat apparently. The 5 speed Manta is the one as its small but they are steep as everyone wants them for redtop kit car conversions...cartons is the one to use instead but quite a sizeable unit.
Regarding rear ends...rover P5b is one people have used and takes some power. Yes right..the GM engines are shocking apparently whereas the Isuzu unit can be tuned massively free of cost and still be reliable, they also do 300,000 miles easily if looked after..GM ones just go pop
The Blue Toaster
Bayside
0
How common are P5B axles? I know that the LDV Pilot / 200 units are fairly easy to get hold of for reasonable money. Do the P5B units need the spring and shock mounts relocating as the LDV would?
I guess I'm just lazy when it comes to gear changing - manuals for sports driving, Autos for distance, traffic, touring, towing and gentle everyday driving. All my daily drivers have been Autos for a few years after growing out of big power sports cars.
Ill see if I can dig out a link to a couple of forum threads in the US that used Ford gearboxes on the back of the Isuzu. Have you considered using a Vauxhall bell housing onto the original gearbox, hybrid clutch and an overdrive?
I guess I'm just lazy when it comes to gear changing - manuals for sports driving, Autos for distance, traffic, touring, towing and gentle everyday driving. All my daily drivers have been Autos for a few years after growing out of big power sports cars.
Ill see if I can dig out a link to a couple of forum threads in the US that used Ford gearboxes on the back of the Isuzu. Have you considered using a Vauxhall bell housing onto the original gearbox, hybrid clutch and an overdrive?
P5 axle is wider
Modifying from standard is outrageous
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
Founder of the 6 speed club
Modifying from standard is outrageous
"You,re only supposed to blow the bloody SLIDING doors off"
Founder of the 6 speed club
Bayside
0
I've considered a scratch built Jag IRS to fit as an option and that may be something for the future. I also considered using a narrowed Jag front clip as used on some hot rods so that effectively all the suspension, hubs and brakes are Jag but that might take this particular van too far from its standard state which I am reluctant to do given its rarity and mostly original condition.
I hope to get a low top minibus or van at a later date that may get this done to it to make it a daily driver with a more powerful 16v direct injection diesel or straight six unit. However I would only do this to one that was in a bad way so I didn't feel guilty about cutting about the chassis etc.
I hope to get a low top minibus or van at a later date that may get this done to it to make it a daily driver with a more powerful 16v direct injection diesel or straight six unit. However I would only do this to one that was in a bad way so I didn't feel guilty about cutting about the chassis etc.
I've used a Nissan D21 Navara diff, check it out here, http://forum.commervanfan.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4472&whichpage=2.
Cheers Stephen
Cheers Stephen
Bayside
0
The Navara diffs tend to sell for more than the LDV ones I've seen and from your thread there was a bit of extra work around the six stud pattern. Definitely a strong diff though and one to consider as its already been done so you've done all the hard work already.
I get the feeling my Isuzu 1.7TD conversion will be looked at by others too..... as long as I can get it to work.
I get the feeling my Isuzu 1.7TD conversion will be looked at by others too..... as long as I can get it to work.
quote:
Originally posted by Bayside
How common are P5B axles? I know that the LDV Pilot / 200 units are fairly easy to get hold of for reasonable money. Do the P5B units need the spring and shock mounts relocating as the LDV would?
I guess I'm just lazy when it comes to gear changing - manuals for sports driving, Autos for distance, traffic, touring, towing and gentle everyday driving. All my daily drivers have been Autos for a few years after growing out of big power sports cars.
Ill see if I can dig out a link to a couple of forum threads in the US that used Ford gearboxes on the back of the Isuzu. Have you considered using a Vauxhall bell housing onto the original gearbox, hybrid clutch and an overdrive?
Sorry, missed this, wasn't being rude
Thanks for that, yes can use the ford gearbox with an adapter but more cost again not thought about the housing change but looks too tough for me to do that.
Reg the P5B they are 2" wider I think and the bits need moving about to get coilovers etc. on only be a little more welding on top of the 5 link mounts anyhow
I got my axle off Ebay for £4:50 with 2 Rosytle wheels too but think I was lucky there as seems in pretty good nik...yours for £100 ;-)
The Blue Toaster
Originally posted by Bayside
How common are P5B axles? I know that the LDV Pilot / 200 units are fairly easy to get hold of for reasonable money. Do the P5B units need the spring and shock mounts relocating as the LDV would?
I guess I'm just lazy when it comes to gear changing - manuals for sports driving, Autos for distance, traffic, touring, towing and gentle everyday driving. All my daily drivers have been Autos for a few years after growing out of big power sports cars.
Ill see if I can dig out a link to a couple of forum threads in the US that used Ford gearboxes on the back of the Isuzu. Have you considered using a Vauxhall bell housing onto the original gearbox, hybrid clutch and an overdrive?
Sorry, missed this, wasn't being rude
Thanks for that, yes can use the ford gearbox with an adapter but more cost again not thought about the housing change but looks too tough for me to do that.
Reg the P5B they are 2" wider I think and the bits need moving about to get coilovers etc. on only be a little more welding on top of the 5 link mounts anyhow
I got my axle off Ebay for £4:50 with 2 Rosytle wheels too but think I was lucky there as seems in pretty good nik...yours for £100 ;-)
The Blue Toaster
Bayside
0
I've got a table top with its alloy mount on it, a spare alloy mount and two tubes with tapered ends one slightly longer than the other and a matching hole in the floor with alloy surround flush fit to the floor. I put the table together today and although everything fit it was a bit wobbly - is that normal?
Tables of that era usually have fold out tubular legs, pretty sure that's what your Bluebird would have had (Jostien has been looking for one for years for his Bluebird). I suspect what you have is a later addition, maybe a home made one, but if it does the job, with a bit of fettling, then no problem. Would like to see a picture to be sure.